tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4638619958588096610.post8253514063437857410..comments2023-11-22T09:11:01.567+00:00Comments on George Szirtes: Serious and impossibleGeorge Shttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08889600788146987089noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4638619958588096610.post-15594008536988401442011-05-22T21:12:16.182+01:002011-05-22T21:12:16.182+01:00I expected him to be charged though it doesn't...I expected him to be charged though it doesn't make any real difference whether I expected it or not. wo points here:<br /><br />1) Compromising a case would depend on the amount, kind and degree of assumption of guilt. It is not always easy to keep the court and public speculation apart. There seemed to be a lot of assumptions in this case. But I freely admit that doesn't necessarily prejudice an outcome: it only might.<br /><br />2) My opinion, or any other less then fully informed opinion of the case, such as we don't have, is worth no more than, 'I bet the bugger did it.' That doesn't seem like an opinion particularly worth articulating: in fact it seems to me to open the door to witch-hunts of various kinds. But again, I grant you that it is the nature of people to speculate and have opinions. But that doesn't stop me not liking it.George Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08889600788146987089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4638619958588096610.post-35469604671743444032011-05-22T20:04:54.831+01:002011-05-22T20:04:54.831+01:00An arrest is not a charge
That he has now been ch...<i>An arrest is not a charge</i><br /><br />That he has now been charged won't have escaped your attention. I don't mean to say that it follows from this he is guilty, only that the presumption of innocence is an obligation that falls primarily on the <i>court</i>. I don't see how other people speculating as to whether he did it can be shown to compromise this.Shuggyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00298179140317536572noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4638619958588096610.post-43084918166250516792011-05-21T20:10:24.365+01:002011-05-21T20:10:24.365+01:00Fair point on power, Shuggy. But it's a diffic...Fair point on power, Shuggy. But it's a difficult balance. On what basis do we form 'an opinion', as you put it? <br /><br />An arrest is not a charge, and I doubt you would want to go far down that road. In that case anyone arrested might as well be guilty. (I myself suspect he might be guilty, but don't consider that suspicion particularly valuable.) <br /><br />The police might well have an opinion, but we - meaning you and I and other opinion mongers - don't know what the police knows. Nor has what they think they know been tested. It's not a bad idea for those who are not the police to bear that in mind.George Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08889600788146987089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4638619958588096610.post-15093675560864661192011-05-21T19:51:09.703+01:002011-05-21T19:51:09.703+01:00But he's got some of that already.
As have hi...<i>But he's got some of that already.</i><br /><br />As have his accusers. I'm interested in the way people seem to think that the presumption of innocence somehow means everyone is to pretend they have no opinion on whether he did it or not. Obviously the arresting authorities have an opinion on the matter, otherwise they wouldn't have arrested him. <br /><br />I'm also interested in what this shows about people's attitudes to power. Do all these commentators share this 'discomfort' when someone lower down the social hierarchy is presumed guilty by the press?Shuggyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00298179140317536572noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4638619958588096610.post-23412940053312048592011-05-20T17:37:36.168+01:002011-05-20T17:37:36.168+01:00It is indeed a tricky word 'womaniser', pa...It is indeed a tricky word 'womaniser', panther. The Don Juans of the world must have some quality besides a fixed determination to have their way. So charm, so talk, so flirtation, so sheer pleasure in company, so romance, and so it goes. Even Casanova preferred seduction to rape. Seduction is so much more a compliment to the seducer. <br /><br />Hot rabbits are in many ways the simplest part of the deal. Isn't there a new film based on the premise that husband goes off hot rabbiting while wife falls in love with someone else and each is trying to figure out which is worse?<br /><br />In DSK's case (thank you for the acronym) I do completely share your unease. That is prejudicial reporting. Though it might be compared with reports of women's previous sexual experience or with being accused of being 'provocatively dressed' on previous occasions when reporting rape.<br /><br />Nor is that altogether simple either. One day when I am feeling braver I'll try to think my way through it.George Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08889600788146987089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4638619958588096610.post-12410534536989853972011-05-20T16:14:25.668+01:002011-05-20T16:14:25.668+01:00An interesting case. But I don't think I can b...An interesting case. But I don't think I can be the only person who was ill at ease when the story broke to hear DSK's affairs and seductions talked about in the very same reports that reported his arraignment on charges of attempted rape.<br /><br /> Plenty of womanisers (a tricky word ) wouldn't dream of raping anyone, much less actually doing so.<br /><br /> Being a hot rabbit should only be of concern to the hot rabbit him/herself, the hot rabbit's spouse/partner and the other people with whom the hot rabbit is hot-rabbiting. Unless said hot rabbit is setting him/herself up as a guardian of public morality.panthernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4638619958588096610.post-61648968859656450632011-05-20T15:16:40.390+01:002011-05-20T15:16:40.390+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.George Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08889600788146987089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4638619958588096610.post-49056371179857813312011-05-20T15:15:59.983+01:002011-05-20T15:15:59.983+01:00Yes, quite so. Though the odd individual slipping ...Yes, quite so. Though the odd individual slipping under the radar is the case in every human enterprise, isn't it?<br /><br />Celebs and politicos must take more responsibility of course if they want to avoid the charge of hypocrisy. Though those who expose them are no less hypocritical.<br /><br />I just like to feel that we know, as much as we can, what we are talking about and that we talk about things honestly, all the while knowing that odd individual matters will continue slipping under the radar, if only because we too are part of human affairs. But then that too is part of the honesty.<br /><br />Favourite phrase: I don't know but I seem to think that...George Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08889600788146987089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4638619958588096610.post-55221531050980802842011-05-20T14:48:36.593+01:002011-05-20T14:48:36.593+01:00But that is just it, French privacy laws don't...But that is just it, French privacy laws don't permit journalists to write about what they discover about the bedroom antics of their politicians and celebrities. Which on the one hand is good and tolerant in a culture were having a mistress or lovers outside the marital situation is perfectly permissable but I suppose on the other hand it could allow the odd individual with more illeagal tastes to slip under the radar.<br />The press in this country is a bit old seaside postcard and does frown on the extra marital relations of celebrities and politicians. But as far as the politicians are concerned, they usually set themselves up for criticism by taking an antiquated stance on morals and family values and end up looking like glorious hypocrits.<br />The same goes for the celebrities who sell their wedding photos and various happy ever after stories for millions, then when the almost enevitable affair or transgression occurs, of course the papers are going to leap all over it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4638619958588096610.post-20903302771162405702011-05-20T14:28:35.667+01:002011-05-20T14:28:35.667+01:00I suppose the French have been more tolerant of ho...I suppose the French have been more tolerant of hot rabbits of either gender, or at least acknowledged their existence, shrugging in that typically gallic way, as if to say, Well there is no denying there are rabbits and some are hot, or as Blake put it, <i>One law for the lion and the ox is oppression.</i> To which the rider may be added that being oppressed by a lion is also oppression.<br /><br />Mind you, sometimes the gallic shrug seems preferable to the sudden shocked splurges of ketchup in the Brit press. Don't you think that the Brit press idea of sex is derived from Benny Hill? I can just hear the background music.George Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08889600788146987089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4638619958588096610.post-87573385119739296002011-05-20T14:08:37.905+01:002011-05-20T14:08:37.905+01:00I was using transgression to cover all crossed bou...I was using transgression to cover all crossed boundaries in the sexual landscape. It seems that Strauss-Kahn was transgressive and even earned himself the title of 'hot rabbit' for all his extra marital affairs. Although applying the term 'hot rabbit' to a 62 year old man accused of rape makes me uncomfortable. Sorry to be squeamish. Of course just because Strauss-Kahn had sexual appetites that led him to have affairs and encounters does not mean he is more capable or guilty of the accused rape. Although if we go along with the conspiracy theories for the briefest moment, it would make him that much easier to set up.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4638619958588096610.post-10855097042567245462011-05-20T13:32:57.256+01:002011-05-20T13:32:57.256+01:00I wouldn't dispute any of that, Anon. The conv...I wouldn't dispute any of that, Anon. The convictions might be rare because often it's the word of one against the word of the other, and if time has passed the physical evidence must be harder to produce. I do think it is, rightly, one of the gravest charges to be laid against someone. I don't remember the Depardieu case but I certainly remember the Polanski.<br /><br />As a side note, 'transgression' is a strange word. Artists everywhere were priding themselves on being transgressive. I suspect the sexual arena is extraordinarily difficult to handle in terms of legislation. Drugged and raped at thirteen, however, is not difficult. Nor is the charge - if proven - against Strauss-Kahn.<br /><br />But the social gravity of the charge is demonstrated in his case by the consequences before any trial.George Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08889600788146987089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4638619958588096610.post-21748329454598258682011-05-20T13:21:44.566+01:002011-05-20T13:21:44.566+01:00As a female I don't don't have the same fe...As a female I don't don't have the same feeling of wandering into a minefield as you do when discussing issues surrounding rape. In British culture it feels like even the hint of sexual scandal can be very damaging to career and personal life. If a celebrity is accused of rape then the bad whiff never goes away. Rightly or wrongly depending on circumstance.<br />The Strauss-Kahn story has made the Polanski scandal come to the surface again and be re-examined in the public eye. The French do seem to have a different attitude to sexual transgression, I like to think that if a British film maker were accused of drugging and raping a 13 year girl, that we would not harbour them, but send them off to stand trail.<br />Does anyone remember Gerard Depardieu and his astonishing PR disaster some years back, when he spoke freely of committing some rapes and even described prowling around at night waiting for some woman to be alone at the bus stop before he pounced. <br />The chances of getting a rape conviction in this country are pretty slim, I should imagine the statistics in France are even worse.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com